Zeo shutting down: export your data!

As a former Zeo user, I recently got an email from Resmed offering a discount on the S+. I’m really curious to see how these compare. Are there any current Zeo users out there who have used the S+ in addition to the Zeo? I’d love to see some feedback on whether the data returned by each device matches.

Any data points yet?

I’ve been using the Zeo Mobile for a few months, and recently purchased a Resmed S+. It’s taken me ~3 weeks to fine tune its position such that my wife’s movement doesn’t interfere, but I think it almost there now… I have done a couple of comparison tests with the Zeo and it seems to roughly match up but not as well as I’d expect. However I dont know how much of the discrepancy is due to the S+ not being positioned properly!

I’ll gather some more data over the Christmas break and post it here.

Some general comments on the S+ from my experience so far:
PROS:

  • Great user experience, flawless Bluetooth connectivity (Android phone)
  • Microwave sensor is very impressive for a consumer device
  • Resmed have obviously put a lot of work into it

CONS:

  • Incredibly difficult to find ‘just the right’ positioning of the pod. I haven’t done a great deal to isolate the root cause of the issue, but it consistently thinks I’m awake for a total of ~1hr during the night when the Zeo (and my memory) says otherwise
  • Setup and troubleshooting documentation from Resmed is very poor. They provide a ‘not to scale’ diagram of the ideal setup which is of little help, and the help section regarding setup issues is very scarce. In their defense I did receive a couple of good tips after contacting customer support, and they did offer to help fine tune setup if I send photos etc. My suggestion would be: provide detailed diagrams of setup requirements, a detailed troubleshooting guide, and some live feedback to the user as to the quality of the signal. The most frustrating thing is that you have to wait until the NEXT DAY to figure out how the change in setup affected sleep detection. Hence the incredibly cumbersome fine tuning process…
  • No access to any raw data beyond the hypnogram and sleep stage breakdown (and temperature/light level)

Seems like a lot of cons, but really I’m quite happy with the S+. It has a lot of potential, so hopefully some of these issues can be fixed with firmware updates.

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If it is that hard to setup the S+ initially, I wonder if it is also difficult to keep it set up. Would some little variation cause you to set up over again? Is the set up positional only, or is there some sort of tuning also?

Thanks,

Steve

Yep, it’s a bit of a nightmare to keep it in just the right spot. Especially if you have a curious dog/cat!

Setup is positional only, absolutely no control over anything else.

After looking into this issue further, I’m pretty confident that the main problem is that the S+ sleep staging algorithm appears to be designed specifically for people with perfectly ‘normal’ sleep. After filming myself sleep and correlating video footage with S+ and Zeo data, it seems that I move around quite a bit while asleep. No violent kicks or anything, just gradual arm/leg movements & rolling over etc. The S+ seems to classify REM sleep based on a) variable breathing intensity/frequency and b) NO movement. Since I tend to have ‘a’ but not always ‘b’ during REM, the algorithm’s next best guess is AWAKE.

This issue would be easily resolved if they had an adjustment for movement sensitivity, or even a simple 1-2 night calibration period. I suspect the reason that Resmed hasn’t done any of this and wont/cant answer tech support questions beyond what is listed in the FAQ is that they have merely repackaged existing technology, including most if not all of the firmware & backend sleep staging algorithm. I may be wrong of course, but it certainly seems this way after dealing with tech support.

Hoping someone can please help with a couple questions…

1.) Is there currently any way to recover my old data that might still be on the zeo?

and

2.) Assuming I follow the instructions for updating the firmware, is there anyway to view the data in any kind of meaningful way? Can I view it as a chart (like the display on the front of the zeo), or will it just be a string of nonsensical data?

Thanks!

@qsusername, see @woodinblack’s viewer app.

Thanks that tool looks great! And it sounds like it works with encrypted data (can anyone confirm)? Glad I didn’t update the firmware yet!

Even though I have not personally used it on encrypted data, I am certain it does.

Yup I was able to recover old data from years ago (no new firmware needed)!

I’m going in to see a sleep specialist in a couple weeks, this data will be useful!

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Glad you got your data!

Hello Gary,
I was wondering if you ever got a reply to your questions?

Lori

There’s a common myth, and it is a false myth, that Li-ion (and LiPo, essentially the same) rechargeable batteries die in about the same time whether or not used. THIS IS NOT TRUE; there are detailed discussions about this, and I also have personal experience of very long life (at least 10 years) of Li-ion batteries used little (GPS used occasionally) or not at all (spares). The one thing that probably is true is that if a battery is left unused, in a discharged state, for long enough for it to self-discharge below a certain critical point, the protection circuitry may prevent it from ever charging again. In this case possibly rejuvenation will work (as the battery isn’t otherwise degraded), but I have no experience or knowledge.

The Zeo battery, in particular, can’t be left in a safely charged state (without disassembly), as it transmits until it discharges. I have two transmitters, and alternate them every few months to protect against the voltage dropping below the threshold.

Source on this is the Wikipedia Talk page (not the article) on Lithium-ion battery. Search for “batteryuniversity” - there are several sections on the page discussing this, with very useful information.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lithium-ion_battery

[quote=“bo3bber, post:391, topic:561”]
To contradict my earlier statement- you could use a coin cell Lithium battery as a replacement … [/quote]
Just a small point: you can get rechargeable lithium batteries in the coin formats (any xx2032 is the same size as CR 2032; some of the "xx"s are rechargeable). Not particularity useful here, but I have replaced a dead rechargeable of odd size with a 2032-size rechargeable in a holder.

HTH

Just an update to confirm that disposable electrodes continue to work well as easily-available headband replacements. I’m now using electrodes 2 years out of date, with a packet lasting nearly six months (they are only supposed to be usable up to 30 days from opening). They work as well as a freshly-opened in-date pack. A set of 3 electrodes lasts 10 days or more (with surgical tape, careful technique, and added Tensive gel after ~5 days). Cost for 50 has ranged from ~£5 (short-dated surplus, several packs) to ~£15 (fresh, single pack delivered from official supplier). The details, which are vital, are in posting #160, p8. HTH

For those who are still interested.

I just exchanged the battery of my ZEO. Opened it with a kitchen knife, cut the cables of the battery and exchanged it with a 3.7V 100 mAh battery I bought for a few bucks.

Cables were soldered together.

The new battery is a bit bigger then the original one, so I placed it externally on the front of the ZEO and fixed it there with tape. Looks a bit like a bomb now but works likel a charm. It is charging normally on the station. I haven’t tried how long it lasts without recharging since I am a polyphasic sleeper and sleep 3.5 h at max. But my guess would be that it lasts a bit longer since it is bigger then the original one.

bye,
Jonny

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Very interesting, it removes the one clear limitation to a Zeo’s lifespan. A source of original batteries for about US$16 delivered has been given somewhere in this thread, but I don’t think anyone has reported actually buying and fitting one.
(The link, which still works:
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Original-PP312122AB-3-7V-Li-polymer-Rechargeable-Battery/318150_2032438855.html)

But fitting a battery of any size or shape externally gets round any supply problems, at the cost of appearance. And once fitted, it is easily replaceable in future using the leads coming out of the case.

How long do headband electrodes last? By using the “headband_impedance” data in each daily xml data file a measurement is possible. There is a number given for each period in the 24 hour day but only non-zero numbers (1-255) are given while using the headband. The first and last non-zero periods are not used because they may be for only part of the period. The good periods are averaged to get a number for the headset impedance. I assume that lower numbers are better (lower resistance). The earliest data for the headset I am using now is 8/8/2013 with an impedance of 131.47. Additional data was analyzed for 5/30/2014, 130.29; 1/21/2015, 130.67; 4/10/2015, 127.40. The final impedance is 97% of the initial impedance so the numbers are all very close. Over a year and a half the impedance has essentially not changed. This headband was purchased from Zeo. Each night I put a lotion on my forehead and the next morning dab the electrodes with the sheet to clean up the electrodes. The lotion is Avalon Organics Hand & Body Lotion, Lavender, purchased from my local food co-op. The elastic parts of the headband look like they may wear out first.

That’s very interesting, I’ve often wondered how and why electroconductive cloth impregnated with silver would wear out. Zeo said electrodes lasted months; I’ve generally got the impression from postings that up to a year is normal; cleaning with alcohol, etc. is reported to have had good results, presumably because poor contact is due to build-up of grunge rather than wear as such. If Avalon Organics lotion works, that’s great; one might otherwise experiment adding (non-adhesive) conductive gel at night. There have also been descriptions of how to make a new headband.

Personally, when replacement headbands became unavailable I started using disposable ECG electrodes, expensive if bought fresh and used once as intended. With techniques that I’ve refined a bit I can get about two weeks out of each set of three electrodes; mine are now years outdated and from a packet opened up to six months ago, making them very cheap, though a bit more fiddly (but not so constricting!) than a headband. Many vital details in post #161, which I’ve edited a few times. For anybody coming across a used working bedside Zeo, a working headband is not essential, but the little black transmitter that clips onto the headband is. The transmitter will last until its Li-ion battery dies; there have been postings on battery replacement when that happens.

Not so much on keeping Zeo running, but an interesting quantified self development that could in principle work with Zeo:
New Scientist magazine issue 3018, 23 April 2015, by Hal Hodson
Digital tattoo lets you control devices with mind power alone
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22630182.200-digital-tattoo-lets-you-control-devices-with-mind-power-alone.html (may need subscription to see full article)

To use instead of conventional EEG electrodes, a flexible electronic skin that conforms to the body is being developed. It is so light that it sticks to the skin through van der Waals force, and can be worn continuously for two weeks. It’s a small patch of gold electrodes on and behind the ear. During development it’s wired, but wireless communication is being looked into. One application is to let wearers control things by thinking about them.

Does anyone know if there is a way to export the binary data from the SQLite database for the Zeo Mobile Pro to the .dat file that the Zeo Decoder Viewer will accept?

At the moment I’m just exporting the whole db on my android as csv file from time to time and it works pretty well, but it does not contain the detailed sleep graph, only showing as “blob”.

The blob is just the binary version of the data that is already there in the other tables in the database. I spent some time looking into it as I wanted to add the sqlite import into my zeo viewer. I did build it in in my latest version, but there is a bit of a problem with getting the dates to line up. I don’t have a mobile system to be able to work out the timing, so I asked on the viewer thread for assistance, but no-one responed, so I assume there isn’t a demand for a mobile import.

I can tell you where the data is but obviously I cant tell you how to get the date right!